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Post by Xynphos on Jan 15, 2015 17:16:30 GMT
Here are some proposed feat fixes that will give some nice things.
1. Archery: Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot are now rolled into the same feat called Point-Blank Shot. For all prerequisites you are considered to have both feats.
2. Two-Weapon Fighting(and Multiweapon Fighting): When you hit +6 BaB you gain Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
2a. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting: When you hit +16 Bab, you gain Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting.
2b. Two Weapon Defense: At +6 Bab you gain Improved Two-Weapon Defense.
For all prerequisites you are considered to have all included feats.
3. Weapon Focus: You gain +1 attack with the selected weapon when you take the feat. At +6 Bab the bonus increases to +2, at +11 Bab it increases to +3, and at +16 BaB it increases to +4. Greater weapon focus no longer exists. You are considered to have both feats for prerequisites.
3a. Weapon Specialization: You gain +2 to damage with the selected weapon. When you obtain your 9th fighter level the bonus increases to +3, at your 14th fighter level the bonus increases to +4, and at your 19th fighter level the bonus increases to +5.
3b. Combat Expertise: If you take at least a -4 to your attack with this feat you are considered to be fighting defensively for all purposes.
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Post by Sir Shadow on Jan 15, 2015 22:43:27 GMT
Just my opinion:
1. Seems reasonable.
2. Way too powerful a change. Merging 4 feats together is a bit extreme, plus the DEX requirements for the higher levels of TWF are much higher than for the base feat.
2a. Merging the TWF suite with TWD doesn't seem too powerful though.
3. Way too powerful, everyone would be taking Weapon Focus, even if it most of their classes only have 1/2 HD BAB.
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Post by Cendar on Jan 15, 2015 23:41:43 GMT
1) Wonderful.
2) Perfectly fine, considering how underpowered TWF is anyway.
2b) Even better, but may not go far enough. I'll have to think about it.
3) Excellent. Actually makes Weapon Focus useful.
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Post by Kitsune on Jan 16, 2015 0:32:39 GMT
If you guys don't mind me stepping in here for some suggestions. (Also, Gix likes suggestions 2 through 3 ). On the matter of Two-Weapon Fighting, one homebrew rule I've played with in previous games that seemed to work rather well was that you could make your off-hand attack whenever you made the same main hand attack. For example, with +6 BAB, if you use a standard action you make your two attacks (one main hand, one off hand), and if you used a full attack you'll attack four times. F'course, things like Wolf Fang Strike might need to be changed to still be useful (+one/half initiator level to damage with the two attacks?).
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Post by Michael7123 on Jan 16, 2015 0:49:41 GMT
I love the weapon focus fix. It makes it useful.
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Post by Sir Shadow on Jan 16, 2015 0:52:47 GMT
How is two weapon fighting underpowered?
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Post by Kitsune on Jan 16, 2015 1:02:02 GMT
I'll take a crack at this one. Lets presume two characters, equal, with 18 strength and somehow one has two-weapon fighting, and the other has power attack. The guy with power attack is equipped with a greatsword, the one with two-weapon fighting has longsword and shortsword. Both are first level fighters.
Two-Handed Fighter: Has +5 to attack (+4 while Power Attacking) and deals 2d6+6 damage (2d6+8 while power attacking) for an average of 13 (15 while power attacking) damage.
Two-Weapon Fighter: Has +5 to attack (+3 to attack while Two-Weapon Fighting) and deals 1d8 + 1d6 + 6 damage. For an average of 14 damage. Overall, its a total of +1 average damage over the two-handed fighter, at the cost of a feat, and is still less accurate, and deals less damage, than a two-handed fighter power attacking.
And it gets worse with additional levels and feat investments. The only way two-weapon fighting is remotely viable is with a ton of additional damage on hit, such as Sneak Attacking. And even then, they don't get anywhere near what an optimized power attack charger can do. We also didn't factor in that the two-weapon fighter needs to have a higher dexterity to take the Two-Weapon Fighting feats, and thus likely won't have as high strength as the two-handed fighter.
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Post by Sir Shadow on Jan 16, 2015 2:00:29 GMT
I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree since I don't want to become involved in a number throwing argument.
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Post by MilesTiden on Jan 16, 2015 2:05:54 GMT
Two-Weapon Fighting isn't exactly underpowered, it's just extremely resource intensive and unsynergistic. The classes that benefit most are the glass canon sorts, ninja, scouts, rogues and the like. But, due to the fact that you need to full attack to actually get any use out of it, you're stuck right where you don't want to be, in the middle of combat, and have likely made a target of yourself. You also need to take a /ton/ of feats to get the most out of it, and pay twice as much for good weapons. I love TWF, but it is a bit... dysfunctional. Anyways, I like the rest of the ideas as well. (I have to take WF to qualify for Heartwielder, so it's nice to have the bonus. )
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Post by Kitsune on Jan 16, 2015 2:22:01 GMT
Well, numbers were the first thing I went to considering we're talking about the relative worth of Two-Weapon Fighting, and considering the other 'damage' fighting style for fighters tends to be going two-handed, I went with that as a comparison, but fair enough. Also, on the subject of changing some of the baseline feats, might I recommend a change to Combat Expertise? As it is, you can get more mileage out of fighting defensively because more things work with it than combat expertise. Perhaps something along the lines of removing the maximum AC bonus you can get by trading in base attack bonus (there's a feat in Unapproachable East that does this, but I never did understand why you can pump your power attack as much as you like, but couldn't do so with combat expertise). In addition, trading at least half your base attack bonus (perhaps with a minimum of +2 or +4) makes you effectively fighting defensively (gaining the benefits of any feat or class feature that activates based off of it), and if you trade your entire base attack bonus (with a minimum of perhaps +4 or more such) you can effectively be considered to be fighting fully defensively?
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Post by Sir Shadow on Jan 16, 2015 3:27:26 GMT
No, no, you're right, numbers is where the argument lies. I just don't want to post a whole novel about the different options and the math behind it. Basically, I'm not going to try to argue the point because I'm lazy and it's really not that big a deal since the Mod has already spoken about the homebrew.
Plus all the changes would pretty much help my only character in every way, hehe.
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Post by NineOfSpades on Jan 16, 2015 18:06:09 GMT
1. I like it.
2. Combining all four feats together seems a bit to much for me, given that the benefit auto-scales. Lets say TWF and Improved TWF are combined into one feat based on BAB, and Greater TWF and Perfect TWF are combined in the same way. Do the same for Two weapon defense. Still a heavy sort of investment (4 feats total), but its a lot better than the 8 feat investment.
3. I like it. How does this work with Improved/Greater weapon focus. Would those feats still exsist, and if so, do their benefit scale as well? Do we want to put a similar scaling benefit on Weapon Specilization for increased damage.
I know in an earlier version of Grods Fighter fix that I played, all of the fighter feats that granted a static bonus now granted a bonus of 1 + 1 per four levels. It definatly upped the usefulness of the feats, but when stacked all together, it was granting enough bonuses to hit that I only had a realistic chance of missing on the last iterative attack for the round. Combined with the other class fixes now in place, that feels to much to me, so I'm not certain what is the best course to take.
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Post by Xynphos on Jan 16, 2015 20:40:48 GMT
Updated the OP to reflect Nine's Concerns and added a little caveat to Combat Expertise because i feel like what Kitsune said about it makes sense.
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windstruck
Junior Member
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Posts: 81
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Post by windstruck on Jan 16, 2015 22:05:38 GMT
Just want to add my 2 cents on the TWF argument: Weapon cost doesn't necessarily double. It CAN if you want to, but consider that for the cost of one two-handed weapon with an effective cost of +10, you can have two one-handed weapons that are +7 at a slightly lower price. And this difference becomes even more noticeable when these weapon effects go to other special effects that deal damage like acid, bane, holy, merciful...
If you do it RIGHT, TWF is superior looking at full attacks. The problem does seem to be that instead of taking three feats, it should take two, and the more advanced feat would then allow you to make your offhand attack any time you could make a mainhand attack.
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Post by Kitsune on Jan 16, 2015 23:46:05 GMT
I would like to add on to Windstruck's statement, but I would make the suggestion that it should probably be sooner to get than level 11. After all, as it stands I don't believe Two-Weapon Fighting and Spring Attack work, I believe you'd have to take Bounding Assault and 'fluff' it as being your off hand attack, for example. And I am in favor of making two-weapon fighters more mobile without having to be Initiators like a Swordsage. Since, well... Admit it, when one guy's lugging around a greatsword two size categories larger than he is, isn't it a bit odd that he's the more mobile damager compared to the guy with just a pair of daggers? A suggestion I'd recommend is to rewrite the Two-Weapon Fighting feats so that they allow you to make the the appropriate off-hand attack whenever you make the appropriate main hand attack. So, in your current work up, having Two-Weapon Fighting would allow you to make an off hand attack along with your main hand attack whenever you make a standard action attack, and up to two secondary attacks whenever you make a full attack. Also, because the last two feats (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting) are the lowest worth on the two-weapon fighting feat list (due to their attacks taking a -10/-15 due to iterative penalties), to make the two feats balanced perhaps Two-Weapon Fighting should function like the above suggestion, allowing you to make one second-hand attack whenever you make a main hand attack, and then have Improved Two-Weapon fighting give you all your iterative off hand attacks? As it is, I can imagine a rogue type not considering it worthwhile to spend a feat on Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, because they're only getting one attack at their lowest iterative, and even with freeing up a feat slot, there's more usefl things to use that on. Also of note, perhaps Two-Weapon Defense could also grant Greater Two-Weapon Defense at BAB +11? Otherwise I don't think anyone will be taking it just for the extra +1 AC. Secondly, how would the change affect the Gloves of Balanced Hand (MIC?). It gives its user the Two-Weapon Fighting feat if they don't have it, or the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat if they do. With the change to how these feats work, it could potentially make this item a lot more powerful than it already is (although its already quite decent). Edit: Something else to factor with the suggestion on making Two-Weapon Fighting grant you a secondary attack whenever you make a main hand attack (at least with 'Improved Two-Weapon Fighting') is that it'll also allow two-weapon fighters to gain about the same benefit as Two-Handed Fighters do from Haste (I imagine the speed weaponry property should only affect the weapon its on, but having two speed weapons should probably work for TWFs now so they each get +1 attack per round?). The only real exception I can think of to have TWF not affect might be the extra attacks a Monk gets from Flurry of Blows, or things along that ilk like the feat Snap Kick.
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Post by Gaiyamato on Jan 17, 2015 0:25:59 GMT
We had some discussions on Toughness etc. similar to this as well on Giantitp. Making Toughness +1 hp per HD that stacks with Improved Toughness for example.
Two weapon fighting is sub-optimal. However it can be effective. In particular for rogues.
Best example I saw (by Veklim on Giantitp) for these was to merge the feats:
Hardy [General] You are made of tougher stuff. Requirements: Con 12+ Benefit: You gain +2 HP/HD and a +2 bonus to fortitude saves. Special: This feat works retroactively on HP and counts as both the Toughness and Great Fortitude feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.
Quick [General] You react to physical threats with uncanny speed. Requirements: Dex 12+ Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against all attacks from one specified opponent and a +2 to reflex saves. Special: This feat counts as both the Dodge and Lightning Reflexes feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.
Intuitive [General] Your mental awareness gives momentary insights to unseen threats. Requirements: Wis 12+ Benefit: You gain +2 to will saves and the effects of the blind-fight feat. Special: This feat counts as both the Blind-fight and Iron Will feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.
I would make all of them count as fighter bonus feats as well.
You could go further and roll endurance into the Hardy feat as well.
EDIT: Found it
Stubborn [General] You refuse to accept defeat where others would have no choice. Requirements: Base Fort save +2 Benefit: You gain +4 to checks and saves to resist non-lethal damage and on massive damage saves, and you may sleep without penalty in light and medium armours. Furthermore you instantly stabilise if dropped to between -1 and -9 HP, may act as if disabled instead of losing consciousness in this state and may take a standard action (albeit for 1HP of damage) or a move action whilst doing so. You still die if reduced to -10HP or less. Special: This feat counts as both the Endurance and Diehard feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements, as well as replacing the standard Endurance bonus feat given to classes like the Ranger.
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windstruck
Junior Member
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Posts: 81
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Post by windstruck on Jan 17, 2015 0:35:30 GMT
Something is ALWAYS going to be sub-optimal. Be it the race you choose, your class, your feats, your weapons. When everything becomes equal, the perceived value of our decisions melt away, and when the sub-optimal becomes optimal, then people will clamor for the thing that got passed up to also be "fixed" and be equal or better.
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Post by Gaiyamato on Jan 17, 2015 0:38:25 GMT
Something is ALWAYS going to be sub-optimal. Be it the race you choose, your class, your feats, your weapons. When everything becomes equal, the perceived value of our decisions melt away, and when the sub-optimal becomes optimal, then people will clamor for the thing that got passed up to also be "fixed" and be equal or better. Indeed. I am the king of playing "suboptimal" characters. However, some stuff in 3.5 is just plain old not worth taking at all. Such as Weapon Focus and Toughness etc.
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Post by Sir Shadow on Jan 19, 2015 3:15:41 GMT
So is there any word on if these changes have been tweaked to approval or not? I only ask because all changes here would affect my character.
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Post by Cendar on Jan 19, 2015 15:23:12 GMT
I approve.
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