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Post by Xynphos on Feb 1, 2015 8:58:08 GMT
I was thinking of what to buy on Myth'Rik and came to the conclusion it sucks to enchant ALL of your thrown weapons. Then I got to thinking, huh, well natural attack users had the same problem with their weapons, so why not take the Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species and adapt it to apply to thrown weapons, but only when they are thrown. This is the result of my brainstorm.
Ring of Thrown Weapons: The enhancement bonuses on this ring are applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer’s thrown weapons. In addition, any weapon special quality may be applied to this ring, and the quality then applies to those thrown weapons as well, but only when they are thrown, and not merely held. Caster Level: 3rd Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor Market Price: 600 GP plus the cost of the enchantment bonus and weapon qualities to be applied times the different types of thrown weapons affected.
Examples: 1. A +1 Ring of Thrown Weapons(Daggers) Would cost 2600 GP and apply a +1 enchantment bonus to attack and damage to all daggers thrown by the wielder. 2. A +1 Ring of Thrown Weapons(Daggers & Boomerangs) would cost 4600 GP and apply a +1 enchantment bonus to attack and damage to all daggers and boomerangs thrown by the wielder. 3. A +1 Returning Ring of Thrown Weapons(Daggers) would cost 8600 GP and all daggers thrown would be treated as +1 Returning daggers.
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Orsyn
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Post by Orsyn on Feb 1, 2015 23:48:45 GMT
The only minor problem I see with this is in regard to cold iron weapons, which have an increased cost to enchant iirc. But that's a bit of an edge case, and I don't think this would be particularly overpowered otherwise
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Post by Kitsune on Feb 2, 2015 1:17:12 GMT
I think this is a bit more potent than the amulet from Savage Species, which probably speaks against it. Mostly because as far as I can tell, that ring would apply to however many daggers you throw in a round - so for example for 2,600 gp you can toss four, six, or even more daggers in a round and have them ALL be enchanted (and you can get to some pretty insane machine gun throwing weapon builds). Where as the same price in a Necklace of Natural Attacks applies to only ONE attack, not one type, one ATTACK (claws need to be bought twice, one for each). This is also not getting into the fact that Natural Weapons don't get an iterative attack, where as a thrown weapon build does (provided they have enough things to throw).
This is also not really balanced compared to, say, two-weapon fighting (which throwing weapon builds frequently take advantage of), as this ring allows them to enchant 'both hands for tossing' for the price of one.
Perhaps, if I may make a recommendation, instead of this ring, perhaps a weapon property (for perhaps a +1 or +2) that causes the weapon to teleport back into the user's hand fast enough to be used in the next iterative?
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Orsyn
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Post by Orsyn on Feb 2, 2015 1:43:24 GMT
I wasn't aware of the fact that necklace was limited to one particular attack.
What about, to put it on par, rather than charging by weapon type, it applies to all weapons thrown, but has a number of uses/round, as paid for upon creation. As an additional thought, it might want some language regarding not stacking with existing weapon enchantments, so you can't enchant one of these to be +1 shocking and throw +1 flaming daggers for a +3 weapon equivalent.
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Post by Xynphos on Feb 2, 2015 2:17:54 GMT
I pretty much copy pasta'd the description and replaced "Necklace" with "Ring" and "Natural" with "Thrown." Every time I've seen the necklace used, you choose a natural weapon such as claw and the bonus applies to every attack with that natural weapon. Meaning that if I had two claws it would apply to each claw. If I chose tentacle as my one natural weapon it would apply to all tentacle attacks that I made, even if I had 8 of them. The discount that natural weapon users get with this item is the whole reason I thought of this. Currently there is no feasible way to enchant multiple natural weapons besides this item. The same goes for thrown weapons. Like I said, its an adaptation, not a completely new item. It has a basis within published material, I just want it to apply to thrown rather than natural weapons.
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Post by NineOfSpades on Feb 2, 2015 2:19:42 GMT
I think this is perfectly fine, and will approve it as is.
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Post by Kitsune on Feb 2, 2015 2:25:58 GMT
If that is how Necklace of Natural Weapons works on these forums, I certainly won't complain (considering it take's Kaldakaczil from a x6 to a x4 cost), but I've never had it ruled that way, since each claw or tentacle is a distinct and separate natural weapon, even if they are the same type. Using a direct swap, you could also try to argue that some effect which has, say, +1 to any weapons in your hand (multiplied by the number of weapons), and trying to argue that holding four swords all get the bonus for the cost of one.
For example this passage; "A +1 necklace of natural weapons that affects one natural weapon costs 2,600 gp; if the same necklace affects six natural weapons, it costs 15,600 gp." The necklace never mentions natural weapon type, only natural weapon. It never clarifies that it refers to a type of natural weapons, over just one 'natural weapon' (like a singular claw or bite). And while you CAN argue that the language of how its worded allows both ways, I think it goes against the assumptions and language used in the rest of the game. I personally would have to make the necklace count every weapon, even those of the same type, in the price. But that's my say.
Also as an aside, Necklace of Mighty Fists from the DMG is an alternative (doesn't allow special abilities, three times the price of a magical weapon, but affects all natural and unarmed attacks).
Edit: I also want to bring up, once again, that Natural Weapons do not get iterative attacks (outside of the rapid strike feat line, and even then, you only get one or two extra attacks), while with a thrown weapon using this, you do. I think only a 2,600gp cost to provide what may be 10+ dagger attacks in one round with a +1 bonus is far too cheap for how effective it could be. Especially considering you wouldn't need to grab the returning property with this item, just buy a chunk of non-magical daggers or throwing weapons and use at will (or use the gloves that give you an infinite number of javelins). This item is much more effective for the price than Necklace of Natural Attacks is, unless you're using something that could potentially get 10+ natural weapons of one type, which I don't think there are very many ways to get. But ANY throwing weapons user worth his salt can easily reach those numbers. Heck, I believe you could even get to 16+ with the right type of build, which would make this weapon utterly insane for its price.
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Post by Gaiyamato on Feb 2, 2015 4:00:41 GMT
Usually a pair of claws is one natural weapon. A bite would be another.
I think this should cost a little more. But really all it is doing is adding a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls and they count as magic for DR. Which isn't much. I would just up the cost by 25-40%ish and make sure it only applies to non-magic weapons thrown so then cannot be used to stack bonuses.
Other than that it looks ok to me.
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Post by Kitsune on Feb 2, 2015 4:12:02 GMT
Usually a pair of claws is one natural weapon. A bite would be another. I think this should cost a little more. But really all it is doing is adding a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls and they count as magic for DR. Which isn't much. I would just up the cost by 25-40%ish and make sure it only applies to non-magic weapons thrown so then cannot be used to stack bonuses. Other than that it looks ok to me. I think any increases in price should be more fundamental than that. For example, going with two-weapon fighting, you can usually get around 8-9 attacks at most per round (with your weapons, you can get a bit more with things like snap kick, but you're no longer using weapons), and you still need to purchase two separate weapons. This ring, however, would allow for the cost of one magic weapon, to it enhance a potentially ludicrous amount of attacks per round. Off the top of my head, with Xyn's thri-keen which this is being used for. At BAB +16 with Perfect Multi-Weapon Fighting or whatever, would have sixteen thrown weapon attacks a round unless I'm mistaken. Throw in a dip into Master Thrower, and that's suddenly 32 times you've gotten to attack, and you can sink a lot of gold into that one ring and reap the huge benefits. Regardless of the Natural Attacks amulet comparison, that alone is irreparably broken in my mind. And I'm sure you can get even more thrown weapon attacks than that with a bit of investment. Damage alone, you can get one of those weapon enhancements that apply a save or get screwed and know that you're throwing so many daggers at the guy that he's bound to roll a one. Imagine that when you can toss 32 Enervating Daggers at someone, more than likely getting a few crits and chunking them with more negative levels than they knew existed. I think, at the very bare least, they need to be changed to have to multiply for every 'hand' that's tossing. So if you're a normal person using throwing weapons with two hands, you at least double the price, and be 'equivalent' in investment to a two-weapon fighter. For a Thri-keen, the price would increase to times four. If you have another limb that can start tossing daggers, you increase it by those too. That I think would be relatively fine (it'll be stronger than the Amulet of Natural Attacks still, at least with the interpretation that I think is correct, but it'll put the thrown weapon user on the same weapon price investment that one of his melee compatriots have). The only way I think the current item idea would be acceptable is if the entire weapon cost system was overhauled so that EVERYONE only needed to pay for effectively one weapon, no matter their styles. Which I believe the mods or admins were against, before hand.
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Post by Gaiyamato on Feb 2, 2015 6:53:50 GMT
Meh, if you make it so it cannot stack with enchanted weapons they are limited at +1 weapons. Your arguments might be more that other stuff is weak or overpriced more than anything else.
His ring is limited to one type of item, and only adds a +1 bonus. He is getting 1 extra to hit and 1 extra damage. For an item that would be around the 10k price mark that is rather sub-optimal. Sure if someone made an entire dedicated build that could throw a bazillion knives a round and catch them as they returned it might get crazy, but I am not sure what else that build could do. Decent enough AC pretty much negates his entire usefulness.
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Orsyn
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Post by Orsyn on Feb 2, 2015 7:16:46 GMT
To clear something up, the amulet in the original post, as approved, is not limited to a +1 bonus. It can be enchanted like a weapon.
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Post by Kitsune on Feb 2, 2015 7:19:37 GMT
Meh, if you make it so it cannot stack with enchanted weapons they are limited at +1 weapons. Your arguments might be more that other stuff is weak or overpriced more than anything else. His ring is limited to one type of item, and only adds a +1 bonus. He is getting 1 extra to hit and 1 extra damage. For an item that would be around the 10k price mark that is rather sub-optimal. Sure if someone made an entire dedicated build that could throw a bazillion knives a round and catch them as they returned it might get crazy, but I am not sure what else that build could do. Decent enough AC pretty much negates his entire usefulness. I'm pretty sure the item he's proposing functions like the Amulet of Natural Attacks, meaning it can scale like any other weapon enhancement, up to a +10 total worth of enhancement bonuses across all thrown weapons of the same type he can throw, for the price of a single weapon + 600 gp. Especially since one of the examples he shows is a +1 returning ring. Sure, a lot of +1 daggers won't hurt. But how about 32 +1 Vorpal Daggers in one round? So long as he has a decent basic attack bonus, and a good chance to confirm because of it, he's got a really good chance of instantly killing almost anything that isn't an undead, construct, or amorphous creature (or a Lumi) for the price of 50,600gp of a +5 weapon (although a thrown dagger is an interesting case when it comes to vorpal, vorpal is a melee weapon enhancement but it's not like it says it has to be a melee attack to activate it from what I know, so that might not work). Or throwing 16-32+ +1 keen collision daggers. Or as Xyn's mentioned in the chat box, +1 wounding daggers for 18,000gp. Enjoy the potential 32 con loss a round. THAT'S why I think the ring, as its current form, is completely, out of the line, broken and overpowered for its price. Hell, even my suggestion of making the price increase per limb tossing may not balance it exactly, because its very, very easy to get more attacks with thrown weapons (Master Thrower practically doubles your amount of hits), but at least he'll be paying as much as a melee character for his weapon enchants for something wielding as many 'weapons' as he is.
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Post by Gaiyamato on Feb 2, 2015 7:26:54 GMT
To clear something up, the amulet in the original post, as approved, is not limited to a +1 bonus. It can be enchanted like a weapon. Yes, just passes the enchantment on. I think for an increased price and a bit of a limit on how much it can be enchanted it should be ok. If you suddenly had +1 returning souldrinking and bought 32 Feycrafted Thinaun daggers I would grow concerned. Both over your power and the volume of gold you have had access too. lol Limit it to Enhancement bonus (so max 5), returning and a short list of +1 options maybe? Make it cost a little more. I dunno. I can see how it could be abused, but so can most things in D&D.
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Orsyn
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Post by Orsyn on Feb 2, 2015 7:30:20 GMT
I dunno. I can see how it could be abused, but so can most things in D&D. This is basically how I see things. These forums are -extremely- permissive as-is. I'm not particularly concerned that the item may allow an extremely optimized thrower to outdo an ubercharger, but honestly, if it gets abused, it's a problem with the player, not the item, and something that should be handled as such.
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Post by Kitsune on Feb 2, 2015 7:32:33 GMT
Even if its limited to a short list, it doesn't change the fact that it'll still be more cost effective than it should be. But at least it wouldn't be dishing out 32 con damage instant death every round. And that's before we include thing like ricochet feats.
Either the weapon needs to be multiplied for every 'limb' attacking (like the NoNA does), or it should have a flat, huge multiplier like the Necklace of Mighty Fists. Perhaps times four or even six, considering how easy it is to throw a lot, and I mean A LOT, of weapons down wind.
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